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I am a little confused about what is bait fishing and what not. If you put a good scent on a plastic lure, does that count as bait fishing? What if you inject some special sause in a lure? I saw a guy spray some WD40 on a lure at Quincy. Is that legal?
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The use of additional scents on plastic lures is illegal in artificials only water. Possesion of these or possession of bait is not illegal, you have to be caught in the act of using it.
Powerbait plastics and scented plastics are legal as long as they are not moldable. That means gulp and the like are illegal.
The stupidest rule is that any soft plastic must be longer than 1 and one half inches to be artificial. The CDOW and TU nuts claim that people will deadstick these tiny plastics on the bottom and deep hook and kill trout. I have never ever seen these, heard of this, and it really isn't going to occur often. Just another way of how the CDOW caters to the fly purists and exaggerates bait mortality. They can use a size #28 midge but we can't use a 1 inch soft plastic. Unbelieveable.
Me personally, I only think artificials only water should be the case in very small heavily fished streams like the Fryingpan or portions of the south platte, and in very small lakes that are very heavily fished, like the delany buttes and MAYBE spinney. However if Antero can grow as big or bigger trout than spinney and have less than half the water and equal fishing pressure as spinney yet allow bait, so could spinney. However to allow bait at spinney now would probably be a bad idea. In a lake mortality is higher than in a stream, about 20% with bait, compaired to about 5% in streams when you use it properly. Then you would see the powerbait soakers poaching fish at spinney. So for spinney to be artificials only, at least at this point, is okay. Antero should always allow bait and any attemps to make it artificials only should be crushed.
 

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Thank you Ice! I guess I never read that section of the pamplete. Which I did right after I read your post. And I am with you on that, to me that makes absolutely no sense. You can use a fly all under 1-1/2 inches but you cant use a jig to imitate the same thing that small? Wild. Or gulp, I would have used that on a artifical bait river or lake if I was going to fish soft plastics, then would have been hella pissed if I got a ticket for it.

Ice is right though the fishing rules read exactly like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I talked to a DOW person abaut that and he said, the fish hold on and swallow the smal plastic but the fly taste bad and the fish spit it out fast wich does not result in the fly swalowed. ???

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gauazoi said:
I talked to a DOW person abaut that and he said, the fish hold on and swallow the smal plastic but the fly taste bad and the fish spit it out fast wich does not result in the fly swalowed.  ???

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Once again that is a bold faced lie they push to cater to fly purists (not the mainstream fly fisherman, the one who looks down his nose at others and thinks most or all waters should be artificials or even flies only).
Flies are often swallowed, and the ironic thing is many fly purists have the highest mortality rate toward fish because they use such thin and weak gear and play every fish to exhaustion. Never use less than 3 pound tippet or leader. If you need invisibility, use fluorocarbon. Though it sinks, that works fine for nymphing.
Properly fishing bait has no higher of mortality than flies or lures. Keeping the rod in your hand and using sharp hooks ensures a 90 - 95% lip or mouth hooking. And if half of deeply hooked fish survive when you cut the line, you have a very low mortality. It's about 5% across the board for proper bait, lures or flies. However many fly fisherman who use the wimpy gear have mortalities over 50%.
I hope I didn't anger any fly fishermen. That was not my intention. Just wanted to say that using gear that is too light causes fish to die from metabolic acidosis.
 

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I have asked 2 DOW rangers/agents. One was named Windie. That was at Pella's, maybe a month ago. I showed her Gulp, Senkos etc... She said. They(?) were talking about it, but for now it was aright. I talked to 2 agents/rangers at Aurora (May 14th). The guy even named Gulp as something that was ok. He said, as long as it was over an inch and a half it was fine However, he said you couldn't rip pieces of gulp off to use (if it would make it smaller than 1 & 1/2 inches).
All of the rangers were real nice. The girl at Pella's seemed a little unsure (That's why I asked again at Aurora). She originaly said if it's plastic, it's ok. I showed her that Senko's were salted, and Gulp was scented, and she still said it was ok. The guy at Aurora named Gulp as an example, and also sai it was aright.
Epic --- If you get a ticket, you can't blame me. ;D I figure if 2 rangers said it's ok I did the right thing, and am covered.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ice,

This ranger I talked to at Stagecoach said that there is a test you can do alone. You take 2 bobers and put a small plastic lure on one and a fly on the other. And then you fish them both in the same area. And when you see a fish take the bober under you dont set the hook and let the fish take the fly or the plastic away. He said the fly bober always comes back to the surface after 1 sec or 2, but the smal plastic almost never comes back. He also said that for the test to be acurat you have to divide the number of times the bober comes back to the surface to the total number of times it goes down, and then compare the fly bober persentage to the plastic bober persentage. I dont now why, but I wrot it  down so I remember and I broght a calculator with me to test it onse.

So I got this great princes nymph fly from Garts on Broadway, the old man who works ther told me it works good on most trout always. And I got some powerbait worms, I now those things are killer in the ise hole and I tried the test at this kid pond in Steamboat, by the railroad (there is a lot of smal trout there, but you have to go early b/c some people throw sticks and their dogs jump in the water in the day). Anyway, I got 14 hits on the fly and 23 on the powerbait worm. And the fly bober always floated back to the top, but the powerbait worm didnt come back 9 time (I kept 5 trout and I gave 4 to a kid next to me). So I think maybe he was wright, but I understand your point, maybe if I set the hook, there would be no problem.

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I have fly fished for over twenty years and can only remember a few times where I have ever gut hooked a fish. As a kid I used bait a lot more often than I do now and it seemed like I would gut hook trout all the time whether I was holding the rod or not. I am definately not against using bait. Just my own personal observation.
 

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OURAY said:
I have fly fished for over twenty years and can only remember a few times where I have ever gut hooked a fish.  As a kid I used bait a lot more often than I do now and it seemed like I would gut hook trout all the time whether I was holding the rod or not. I am definately not against using bait.  Just my own personal observation.
In streams I have never had a problem gut hooking trout on bait as long as I am holding the rod. I can count on one hand the number of deep hooked fish out of hundreds caught on bait last year. If you are using sharp hooks of proper size and a sensitive rod, you will not gut hook fish if you set on the take.
However I notice that trout still will spit out bait all the time. If you feel a strike and fail to react, even in the Colorado River and it's big aggressive trout, they usually will spit the bait without you hooking them. So I find that trout will spit bait almost every bit as often as lures or flies.
Fly fishing, lure fishing, and bait fishing when done correctly all have mortality rates of about the same. And unless you are drifting bait the way I do in a stream, you are not going to catch as many fish as a guy throwing flies or spinners anyway, in most all areas. Bait anchored the bottom isn't natural and you really can't catch many fish when still fishing most of the time, which is the only way bait fishing will have a higher mortality.
As far as the inch and a half thing, no other states have laws like that. Just another Colorado BS thing.
Game wardens will issue warnings for using baits less than an inch and a half, most of the time, and will even occasionally give warnings for bait violations period, though if your fishing say worms in a lures and flies only spot you will almost always get a $48 ticket.
 

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  Well I'm gonna have to agree with Ouray I've been fly fishing about 13 years and can only remember one fish i killed from taking the fly too deep. Plus when fishing a lake you havge basically a split second to react to a hit or the fly is spit out my  trip to Spinney last weekend is proof of that. My feeling is i wish some of the restrictions were tougher on the artifical lakes. I do fish some bait lakes but get tired of beer cans and empty worm containers. Lake John has big fish and you can bait fish them all day long I wish they'd push the Delanneys to atleast 18" one fish limit I think that would clear out alot of the meat hunters that hammer those lakes in the winter ice fishing. I will say i played around on Spinney with a plastic tube jig this weekend 5 casts 3 fish and one came off so I know it can be done I actually wanted to catch a pike but the trout wouldn't leave the tube alone. Again not trying to offend everyone just my opinion



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My biggest problem with bait fishing is that one of the most common methods is: Bait up, cast out, sit and wait for a fish to nearly pull the rod into the water. By then the fish has most likely swallowed it deep. Artificial only regs generally keep that type of pressure (and maybe a few extra anglers) off and the fishing is better IMO.

I don't think ALL Colorado water should be AFLO but I do want to see an increase in artificial/fly lure only regulations in more urban water. This could really save a few of my bass spots. Not that I want to see people to lose their right to use bait, but there could easily be a better balance between bait and AFLO.

* Some of the trout fanatacism in Colorado has gotten out of hand but I don't know enough about the subject to properly debate it. I assume that the origin of this thread was based on higher trout streams and just wanted to throw out my usual "Save some urban water for me!" mantra.
 

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To say that properly fished bait has no more mortality than flies or lures is pushing it. I agree that some skilled bait fisherman can effectively reduce the number of swallows, but the majority of bait fisherman are far more likely to gut hook a trout than a lure or fly-fisherman. Also, large trout are more likely to swallow the bait than small ones. I started out bait fishing and remember many gut-hooked fish, but over my last 20 years of fly-fishing, I have never gut-hooked a trout. Lake Trout do sometimes take the fly deep but it?s only in the throat.

I would like to see far more catch a release waters. Colorado has a real problem with too many small trout and not enough holdover trout and this is due in large part to DOW?s favorable position on put-and-take fisheries. In places where the ecology would support it, releasing all trout over a certain size should be required.

I am always very sad to see someone bonk on the head a beautiful holdover trout that has survived for many years when that fish could be released to give someone else the pleasure of seeing it. Large trout are valuable spawning stock in many waters and should not be removed from the ecosystem.
 

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CatchAndRelease said:
To say that properly fished bait has no more mortality than flies or lures is pushing it. I agree that some skilled bait fisherman can effectively reduce the number of swallows, but the majority of bait fisherman are far more likely to gut hook a trout than a lure or fly-fisherman. Also, large trout are more likely to swallow the bait than small ones. I started out bait fishing and remember many gut-hooked fish, but over my last 20 years of fly-fishing, I have never gut-hooked a trout. Lake Trout do sometimes take the fly deep but it’s only in the throat.

I would like to see far more catch a release waters. Colorado has a real problem with too many small trout and not enough holdover trout and this is due in large part to DOW’s favorable position on put-and-take fisheries. In places where the ecology would support it, releasing all trout over a certain size should be required.

I am always very sad to see someone bonk on the head a beautiful holdover trout that has survived for many years when that fish could be released to give someone else the pleasure of seeing it. Large trout are valuable spawning stock in many waters and should not be removed from the ecosystem.

I respectfully disagree with the statement that properly fished bait doesn't have a lower mortality. I can honestly tell you that most of the bait drifters on the rivers that I know very seldom gut hook a fish, one in ten at the worst. That means the mortality is around 5% if when you cut the line and release the fish that is deeply hooked.
I do not support additional flies and lures only waters and I even think some current waters that don't allow bait should allow bait. Again, I think the only waters that should be artificials only are small and very heavily fished streams and small and very heavily fished lakes.
The reasons bait fishing is compatible with catch and release or reduced harvest in most places is two fold. First of all, the way that bait fishing has a higher mortality is when you are plunking and still fishing and are allowing fish to swallow. Doing this your mortality is around 25% from my studies. I also learned in college that there are tons of variables that effect bait mortality, so saying that bait mortality is always higher is a huge stretch. Now when plunking bait in most larger rivers, your not going to catch many fish because the presentation is unnatural.
Trust me if your drifting bait your mortality will be low. Its not like trout always swallow a bait. In fact in my experiences they will spit out anything if they sense pressure, including the pieces of nightcrawler I use.
When the gear and technique are proper, the mortality is no higher or only slightly higher than flies or lures. To say so is not a stretch, especially from my own experiments and what I learned in fisheries science in college.
 

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I respectfully disagree with the statement that properly fished bait doesn't have a lower mortality. I can honestly tell you that most of the bait drifters on the rivers that I know very seldom gut hook a fish, one in ten at the worst. That means the mortality is around 5% if when you cut the line and release the fish that is deeply hooked.
I do not support additional flies and lures only waters and I even think some current waters that don't allow bait should allow bait. Again, I think the only waters that should be artificials only are small and very heavily fished streams and small and very heavily fished lakes.
The reasons bait fishing is compatible with catch and release or reduced harvest in most places is two fold. First of all, the way that bait fishing has a higher mortality is when you are plunking and still fishing and are allowing fish to swallow. Doing this your mortality is around 25% from my studies. I also learned in college that there are tons of variables that effect bait mortality, so saying that bait mortality is always higher is a huge stretch. Now when plunking bait in most larger rivers, your not going to catch many fish because the presentation is unnatural.
Trust me if your drifting bait your mortality will be low. Its not like trout always swallow a bait. In fact in my experiences they will spit out anything if they sense pressure, including the pieces of nightcrawler I use.
When the gear and technique are proper, the mortality is no higher or only slightly higher than flies or lures. To say so is not a stretch, especially from my own experiments and what I learned in fisheries science in college.
Well, that?s an interesting perspective. You make some points that I have not really thought of before.

I agree that bait fishing in rivers will definitely have a lower swallow rate than bait fishing in lakes.
 

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Bait fishing in lakes: People often tend to leave there rods alone out of their hands. Therefore, if a fish bites, it's given the chance to swallow the hook before the hookset.

Bait fishing in rivers: More than often, the rod will be in hand. At the hint of a good strike, you'll set the hook. Often gettin em in the lip or anywhere away from the throat.

IMO

... And more.... If bottom fishing in lakes which I do often. Sometimes, you'll be forced (by yourself) to keep fish. Just last week, my lady's bro had to keep some drum that swallowed the hook. I had to keep a dinky whitebass that had all three trebles of my Rat-L-Trap in it's mouth. One of the three hooks had him right in the gill. Soooo.... I guess he'll be an appetizer.
 

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C&R and eyered, you guys are both right. Fishing bait in lakes does have a higher mortality because you often let the rod sit. Even here though I can reduce deep hooking by keeping the rod in my hands or standing right by it. Also, slowly bouncing a bait rig on the bottom or back on a slip bobber can often catch more trout than still fishing, even in a lake. So this way your mortality is low.
 

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gauazoi said:
I am a little confused about what is bait fishing and what not. If you put a good scent on a plastic lure, does that count as bait fishing? What if you inject some special sause in a lure? I saw a guy spray some WD40 on a lure at Quincy. Is that legal?
Thanks.
g
make sure u guys dont use wd40 on all ur lures like spinnerbaits, it soaks up moisture and makes them break down more easily.
 
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