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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
NZMS Sanitizing Update:
These Mudsnails are now in all 10 western states.

Many of us have been using the wrong Formula 409 product for killing New Zealand Mudsnails attached to our wading equipment.

“COMMERCIAL SOLUTIONS FORMULA 409 CLEANER DEGREASER DISINFECTANT”

The above 409 product is the only one that was used in the California Department of Fish and Game field test report released in 2005.  This product will not be found in grocery stores as it is a commercial product but it can be found in Home Depot and Lowe’s, Office Max and Office Depot. Unfortunately, the manufacturer has recently discontinued this product but it is still available in places.  The only other product that has the same disinfectant in it is:

“Formula 409 All Purpose Cleaner Antibacterial Kitchen Lemon Fresh.”  - Available in many places but in small bottle sizes only

Key words to look for = Disinfectant or Antibacterial

Please make sure you are using the correct products, as other 409 products are not killing the snails though they do aid in washing them off your equipment. Other Manufacturer’s products with disinfectants have not been test or failed test for either not killing the snails or for damaging wading equipment.

Water based solutions with Copper Sulfate and Sparquat 256 are two solutions proven to be more effective than formula 409 solutions; Availability of these products is some what limited.
see website below.

Ask your local tackle shop to start carrying some of these products.  It is in their best interest to help maintain the quality of our fisheries.

For more information about known sources for all the products, pictures of the correct product, detailed sanitizing protocols, and New Zealand Mudsnail information see this web page.

http://www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm

Always cleanse your wading gear before moving from one body of water to another body of water. No one will know a location is infested until long after the snails are well established.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
ePiC said:
The DOW pretty much said they dont think there is much they can do to contain these, in every state they are found they slowly spread, it could be from alot of things too.  Boats, waders, boots, fish, birds, ect.  They also said the snails prefer warmer water so they may not spread as fast or as well here.
They can not do much except post signs and educate the public.  Niether can we as one individual do much but if we all clean our waders we have a change to at least delay their progress.  The other states did not have the benefit of knowing much about the snails when the snails got a foot hold in the other states.  We have a slight edge there.  In the DOW management plan they state that they think it is possible to delay their progress through public education and  the public taking action.   

The waters that the snails are going to find the most hospitable are all the tail waters.  Our mountain streams may be colder but I doubt that the tails waters are a lot colder that Places like Idaho and Montana.

The majority of the rivers that are infested in California are the rivers that are open and heavily fished in the Winter.  Not much boating that time of year.  It could be that the same water fowl at one river only move to other rivers frequented by fisherman in the winter time but I doubt it; through out the whole year.

The testing of chemicals for killing snails and not damaging waders was only published last year.  It was the first scientific study ever done.  We did not know that there was a "special" 409 we needed to use. I have not found anyone at our TU chapter was even aware that there was more than one 409 product.  It appears from other forums that there are a lot of people that were not aware.

There is still a lot unkown about the snails but it appears that it is  probably pretty much up to us fisherman how fast they spread to other waters.

ePiC, what are is one to do?  Throw their hands in the air and say I am defeated or fight to keep the quality of our favorite fisheries as long as possible?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
ePiC said:
Hey hey dont get me wrong, I was not saying who cares they are going to cover the planet anyways so dont do anything about it.  I brought up at the DOW round table this Alert and alot of guys hadnt heard this there either, some had. 

After visiting 11mile canyon I personally wash my waders (hadnt been using the right version of 409, but will be now)  leave them to dry and dont use them again for atleast 7 days.  Since I have also read they can live upto 7 days out of water.  This is my 11mile Canyon ritual, if fishing other lakes/rivers I just wash them and let them dry, snails are not the only invasive organisms that boats and waders can pickup. 
ePiC,
I figured that was the case but one could interpret that your opinion was that there is no sense to clean.  I am glad you clarified your thoughts.

I urge you to rethink about the importance of dipping your waders after every trip since the idea is not to spread the snails to any where else and no one is going to know that another body of water is infested until long after it is infested.

I presume that you read the part about spraying Formula 409 Antibacterial / Disinfectant is not adequate.  You have to dunk them in the solution.  The solution can be used over and over. (You might find a copper sulfate solution to be more economical and more effective option for you). A convenient way to do that is to go a restuarant and ask for their large empty plastic food buckets and the lids. Most food establishments are glad to get rid of them as it is a pain for them to dispose of.  A friend of mine that repairs restuarant refrigeration equipment recently started collecting them and then handing them out to guys and gals at our TU meeting. He collected 10 in a matter of a few days.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
TimberlineArcher said:
probably another alternative to try is freezing your waders overnight, tahts all you have to do.  not damaging to your waders either... and considering a couple times this year I left my boots in the back of my truck in a few days fishing overnight... I accomplished killing the snails as a result  ;D putting on frozen boots sucks though...
I had heard a complaint from someone who had frozen their equipment and then folded it while it was frozen. the water that was soaked into the wader/boot material had frozen and cracked the wader material when they folded or bent the material. I presume they had frozen their boots still sopping wet. When I lived in Crested Butte my waders and boots would routinely be frozen over night. I would just throw them into the vehicle and by the time I got to the water they were thawed out. Never gave it much thought one way or the other.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The snails crowd out the inverterbrate organisms (scuds, nymphs)  and can become over 90% of the food for fish.  A labratory research study has shown that trout have lost 0.2% of their body weight per month when their diet consisted  completely of mudsnails but when fed scuds the fish gained 1.0% body weight per day.  During part of this study 914 snail shells were recovered from the fish after passing completely through the digestive track. 42% were dead, 43% were alive and 15% empty.  I presume that means that only 15% were digested for food and the fish will help transport live snails up and down the river.

Fisherman have complained that  the fish are smaller and few in river sections heavily infested with the mudsnails.  But I have not run across any data proving that one way or the other.  There may not be any data. 

To what extent that is going to happen here is unknown.

If we all start adhering to the cleaning protocols we have a chance of delaying these impacts.

There is a parasite in New Zealand that steralizes the snails so it helps keep populations in check there.  Around the world bad consequences have resulted numerous times when foreign control species have been introduced to control foreign invasive species.  Thus there will be many years of study before anything like that happens.  But it is more likely it will not happen.   There are studies being conducted with US organisms but any positive results will be years away, also. 
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
From the California Department of Fish and Game Website:
first discovered in California waters in 2000

"To date, there has been little research on the potential impacts of New Zealand mudsnails on other aquatic resources. Impacts could be significant if nothing is done to control its spread. If the snails become very dense and comprise a large percentage of the macroinvertebrate biomass, impacts can be substantial. They can reduce food resources and populations of other macroinvertebrates, particularly mayflies, caddisflies and chironomids. They can also reduce whole-stream algal production. There is very little information New Zealand mudsnail as a food resource for fish, but it does not appear as though they are the preferred food of trout." ..... but remember that only 15% of the snails get digested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
tangledleader said:
I can see the potential haszards, clearly more research is needed.  I have heard of fisheries where carp were introduced to control weed growth, and I wonder if something similar could contribute to the solution, that said I am all for us anglers doing our part.  Is there any other cleaning substance that will not harm waders but kills the snails?  I think I read in the initial post that 409 stopped making the product mentioned.
Formula 409:
The Home Depot near me did not have the "Commercial Solutions Formula 409 Cleaner Degreaser Disinfectant." Home Depot said that they had ordered it several times but were told that Clorox was not shipping any but they did not know why. After talking to and emailing Clorox I got an email form Clorox saying they were discontinuing that product. Earlier this week I called customer service and they say it is still an active product - My Home Depot now has it. .... maybe my emails and sending them a copy of the CA DFG report and the link to West Denver TU's snail page did some good. You should be able to get gallon bottles at Lowe's and Home Depot.

For what is safe for waders:

see this page: www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I have asked a number of equipment manufacturers about compatibility of their equipment with the proven chemical solutions. A few of replied. A number say they are doing some investigation. A number of not replied but it has been a short time since I asked. I have compiled a chart. It will be updated as I get more information.

http://www.westdenvertu.org/NZMS/waderbootinfo.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
daedalus said:
Some fly shops are offering free soaks for wading equipment. (I believe golden river sports in Golden does this)  I am wondering if anybody knows of other shops offering this service.
Golden River Sports is the only one I am aware of.

If you find someone else and it can be added to this webpage.
http://www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm#cleaning
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
milehighDan said:
since i go fishing once a week i usually dont worry about it, I didnt realize those sukers stay alive for 7 days?! good info. It seems to me that either ice water, real hot water, or somthing with hot/cold is attractive. I mean if one can pass threw a trout unharmed, it makes me wonder how a cleaner is gonna do anything.(must eat threw shell?)  thats far out they can do that...dont they breath?
I think a bag of ice, a little pool or bath tub, and some water would work good. just soak them in that... is that cold enough? or no
or maybe..I read somthin about winter streams... you could just fill a REALLY hot bath and put them in that....just dont let your wife see you do it! :D
Cleaner will not kill them but the specific Formula 409 has disinfectant in it. The degreaser in this specific Formula 409 gets the snail to relax so that its trap door will remain open so that the disinfectant will do its job.
To kill them with cold you have to freeze them through. You have to get the inside and outside of your equipment frozen. Thus at least 4 hours will be required and probably 6 to 8 hours.
You obvious have not looked at the web page specified in the initial post. I encourage you to review it.
www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
fishin fool said:
whats the problem????????
my opinion is they are good for the fish.
in case you guys havnt noticed, the main food source for fish in spinney is snails.
producing really fat fish
Fishin fool,

I can see where one that has not read the original links might think that.

A study has shown that fish feed scuds gained weight. when those same fish were feed NZMS they lost weight.  California Fishermen anictodal observations for a catch and release river are that the infested river has less fish and they are smaller.

Please take 2 minutes and read this to learn a little more about  why.

http://www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm#why

Here is the link to "The Bug Labs" report on the experiment

http://www1.usu.edu/buglab/projects/NZMS Denver April 2005.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
fishin fool said:
whats the problem????????
my opinion is they are good for the fish.
in case you guys havnt noticed, the main food source for fish in spinney is snails.
producing really fat fish
Though off hand one might thing your opinion makes sense in reality it does not work out that way.

Read this report by biologist about fish eating scuds that gain weight. Then when the fish are feed all the snails they want to eat that they end up dieing or loosing weight.

http://www1.usu.edu/buglab/projects/NZMS Denver April 2005.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
fishin fool said:
whats the problem????????
my opinion is they are good for the fish.
in case you guys havnt noticed, the main food source for fish in spinney is snails.
producing really fat fish
The cleaning procedures are not just for the NZMS but it is also to help prevent the spread of Whirling disease and Didymo.

I just found this article today where the loss of brown trout in a creek in South Dakota is being attributed to the spread of Didymo

http://www.sdgfp.info/GFPnews/News06/07-14-06.htm

According to the EPA these rivers in Colorado have been experiencing blankets of ditymo in some locations

Cache La Poudre
Frying Pan
Arkansas River
Blue River
St. Vrain
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
jibber said:
I was out with the DOW this fall electro shocking and they were saying that freezing your waders and boots or shoes also kills New Zealand mud snails.  They were using the Copper solution on unfrozen equipment.  No 409 in sight.
Jibber,
Are you sure that the DOW was using copper sulfate? They have been using Sparquat for a disinfectant. Sparquat is what they provided for the National Fly Fishing Championships earlier this year.


Yes freezing your equipment works, 6 hrs or so. It just is not a very convenient thing to do many times. Is It?

Washing them in a dish washer with 120 to 140 Degree water is also good.

Those and several other methods are on this page.

www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
fishingal said:
I remember Sparquat from one of my gazillion jobs, and that's a commercial cleaner. Can you pick this stuff up at Home Depot/Lowe's?

Haven't fished anywhere that has been mentioned as a problem spot, but sadly stuff gets around, and I don't want to introduce unwanted invaders to the places I love to fish.

Even my second freezer doesn't really have room in it - and that's because I have 6 frozen kokes in there that I haven't put in the smoker yet... gotta do that...

Thanks for the thread, guys
Sparquat can be ordered from several chemical companies. There is only one place that stocks it in Colorado. take a look at this page to see which place stocks it and what other places you can order it.

http://www.westdenvertu.org/NZMS/sparquat1.htm

There are several other options besides the sparquat. Refer to this page under the Chemical options category.

http://www.westdenvertu.org/snails.htm

Home Depot and Lowes do stock the Commercial Solutions Formula 409 with Disinfectant
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
nelson said:
I have 2 questions.

1.) If I am fishing the same stretch of river over and over again do I need to sterilize?
2.) What about going from one infested river to another. Since both are already infested, do I need to sterilize?

Thanks!
If you are fishing the same stretch of river over and over again without going to the another stretch of the same river or another body of water no you don't.

Going from one infested river to another river that is infested with the same invasive, such as NZMS, there would be no concern of contamination of that same species. However, the best practice would be to still sanitize your equipment as you maybe taking another species such as Whirling Disease or Didymo with you. It will take a very long time for authorities to recognize that any give species is also contanminating a given section of water or watershed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
nelson said:
I have ................

1.) If I am fishing the same stretch of river over and over again do I need to sterilize? .................
I thought I should add this to clarify.

If you have been in an area that is known to have an invasive such as 11 Mile Canyon and then you go down stream or up stream 2.5 miles you need to clean and thoroughly dry (or sanitize) your equipment.

Don't forget that your dog has been tramping through the same water as you so the dog is at least as likely as you to be carrying someting. Thoroughly clean your dog. Especially between the foot pads.
 
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