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with all the emotion raised from new fishing regs....i wondered if my notion is shared with others....

if bait fishing, be it live, dead, scents, etc. lead to fish swallowing the hook and thus a mortality issue, is it the bait or the fisherman?  hum?

my thoughts are its the fisherman.  why, because anyone really attentive to their rod and fishing it and that has some skill, sets the hook and hooks the fish in the mouth, not in the throat!  BSing with the buddies, drinking beer, kissy face with the girls, etc. don't lend to attentive and skilled fishing.  i have never had a fish swallow a crankbait.  i have never had a fish swallow a scented plastic.  i have never had a fish swallow live bait since i was a 9 year old fishing catfish on the bottom and not paying attention.

i guess regs are more for those that fish but don't have skill.  i think those that have skill probably don't need to worry.

anyone???????? ???
 

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I always thought the idea of flies and lures only was just to make it harder to catch fish. Using bait made it easier to harvest fish and as a result depleted the fishery faster and decreased the number of fish that grow to larger size.

I know that at times the rules about live minnows is an attempt to prevent the intruduction of unwanted species.

I don't know if hook swallowing is the major issue. Does anyone know what the rational is for flies and lures?

Dan
 

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I thought it was also a mortality thing, and I agree if you have a rod in hand and finger on the line you can feel that fish pick up the bait and set the ook in the corner of the mouth. Leaving the pole(s) sit and watching them bob when the fish strikes then picking it up usually ends with a deeper set hook.
I fish with 2 rods, usually 1 rigged for catfish or a nightcrawler on it. I deep hook fish all the time with the one I'm not holding. But if this happens I keep the fish or give it to someone else.

They say that a fish will spit out a fly or lure and not swallow it like bait, I think this is why they have these regs on catch and release waters.
 

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i have had fish completely swallow spinners and feather jigs while actively fishing them so it does happen

it is possible to reduce the number of gut hooked fish by paying close attention to your line but there are time that is not what i want to do somethimes i like to just kick it and listen for the jingle bells

it is not about the skillof the angler it is about the way they enjoy fishing. the DOW has to cater to everyone and does so by having different regs at different places

the same guy you look down own cause they bait fish with open bails for a few trout or cats might be the same guy that thinks you are barbaric to go out and catch fish just to release them  to each there own i think the DOW does a fair job walking this tight rope

i do think that the fly and lure only regs are to reduce fish mortality most areas that have these regs also require barbless hooks and have a reduced bag limit or are even catch and release only
 

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I think this may be why circle hooks are becoming more popular. Im not saying you'll never deep hook a fish but from experence I can say it is ALOT less likely.


IMO



[me=Jay_In_Parker] [/me]
 

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Swallowing the hook with bait is just that, A NOTION. In a lake when you are still fishing it is a lot more common though. Hold the rod and it won't happen as much. Then the mortality will not be that much higher than flies or lures.
When fishing in larger rivers, the only way to consistently hook trout is to drift with livebait and jig with it rather than anchoring it on bottom. That automaticall defeats the argument that allowing bait would cause a lot of mortality because of powerbaiting plunkers. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HOOK MANY FISH.
I have calculated that one in 12 fish swallow the hook when I bait fish by drifting. If half of those that swallow the hook survive, that means one in 24 fish I hook die. Very low mortality.
The ironic thing is that fly fishermen often have the highest mortality. I'm sorry but it's true. They use wimpy rods and feather tippets and often play fish to death, causing them to succumb to lactic acidosis. So when you fly fish, PLEASE don't use anything less than four pound leader or tippet. I cannot tell you how many fish I see the guides and clients kill on the fork and fryingpan by playing them to death or breaking them off. I find fish tangle in many leaders with flies all over their faces, dead on the bottom.
PROPERLY done, bait fishing's mortality is scarecely higher than flies or lures. But flies and lures have to be properly fished too.
Scientific studies also show that barbless hooks do not significantly reduce mortality.
This being said, I only support flies and lures only on small heavily fished lakes with trophy fish, or small heavily fished streams with trophy fish. I will fight tooth and nail the expansion of flies and lure only regs. If they do this on any of our favorite streams, people will ignore these new regs and will sue the DOW and also recall all politicians who support these clowns. It is that simple. Either do what the people want or we will show you the door.
TU is working steadily with the CDOW to gain control of our streams. Many of them want barbless flies only waters, and even catch and release on all waters, even on those waters where harvesting a few trout helps the fishery. They only want to see the glamourous fly fishermen and they don't want to see all these bait drifters happily catching and releasing more fish than they ever dreamed of. When I fish around the river guides and terribly outfish their fly flicking clients, it really PISSES THEM OFF, and I LOVE IT. Long live the worm.
 

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i like my fly and lure only lakes... big fish!!!! i think that this keeps alot of the riff raff out , you dont see beer bottles, bait containers,junk all over the shores..people pack their trash out..
 

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IceInTheVeins said:
PROPERLY done, bait fishing's mortality is scarecely higher than flies or lures. But flies and lures have to be properly fished too.
This is a ture satement, but by changing it to PROPERLY done, Flies only has almost a nil mortality. Which means they dont play the fish to long and dont keep the fish out of the water when releasing, ect. Would also be a true statement. The problem is while you may use the proper techniques there are alot of people that dont use the same style as you or as well as you would like.
 

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ePiC said:
IceInTheVeins said:
PROPERLY done, bait fishing's mortality is scarecely higher than flies or lures. But flies and lures have to be properly fished too.
This is a ture satement, but by changing it to PROPERLY done, Flies only has almost a nil mortality.  Which means they dont play the fish to long and dont keep the fish out of the water when releasing, ect.  Would also be a true statement.  The problem is while you may use the proper techniques there are alot of people that dont use the same style as you or as well as you would like.
True. But like I said, plunking bait in rivers isn't going to catch you a lot of fish to kill anyway. And to show the on lakes or rivers where bait is allowed can grow bigger fish and better fish than areas that are restricted, I can give many examples. The Colorado River, Antero Reservoir, Elevenmile Reservoir, Vega Reservoir, The White River, parts of the Gunnison and Yampa, and countless others. If bait kills as many fish as the TU and CDOW people say, these places would be devoid of big fish, and wouldn't have just as many or more big fish than lures and flies only places.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
i didn't read every reply, so this may have alkready been said, but here goes

i think fly/lure only places conatin bigger fish hands down for a few reasons

1: the fly/lure only rule may deter fisherman who don't want or know how to fish without bait and so the fish get less pressure

2: fishing with bait is just plain easier to do and will generally attract more fish simply because it's real! so, those who don't catch and realease will be able to harvest more fish, when u have to use flies and lures u may if ur good and choose what they want, catch a bunch of fish, but ur chances are less

3: obviously fish with less pressure and less hooks in their lips will get bigger and make the place a higher quality fishery, such as quincy

4: not sure if i was even responding to the right topic, but about deep hooking, an agressive fish can sill take a hook deep, but with lies/lures the lure is generally movving and the hook wont have time to get down their throat before u set it

my 2 cents
 

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What about cutting the line and leaving a swallowed hook in the fish? Is this good or bad? Seems to me to do more damage trying to get the hook out.
 

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srwiz said:
What about cutting the line and leaving a swallowed hook in the fish? Is this good or bad? Seems to me to do more damage trying to get the hook out.
From what ive been told It is alot ex'er on the fish to cut the line as close to the hook as you can and let it fall out on its own. Im not sure that this will work on trout seeing how trout die if the wind blows on them!!


[me=Jay_In_Parker] [/me]
 

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Jay_In_Parker said:
srwiz said:
What about cutting the line and leaving a swallowed hook in the fish? Is this good or bad? Seems to me to do more damage trying to get the hook out.
From what ive been told It is alot ex'er on the fish to cut the line as close to the hook as you can and let it fall out on its own. Im not sure that this will work on trout seeing how trout die if the wind blows on them!!


[me=Jay_In_Parker] [/me]
Haha... I've caught trout with hooks still in them.. in their stomach.. leaders sticking out their mouth. So I think this is a good alternative.
 
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srwiz said:
What about cutting the line and leaving a swallowed hook in the fish? Is this good or bad? Seems to me to do more damage trying to get the hook out.
The latest studies I have seen is that you should leave about 8-10 inches of line hanging out of the fishes mouth.  The logic is that if the line is cut at the hook and the fish eats before it rusts or gets expelled the food going into the mouth/throat rotates the hook (minnow/craw hits the shank and rotates the hook).  If line is left there is some form of tension on the shaft of the hook an hook movement is not at bad.   This study was done on bass and made no mention of trout.
 

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OK, I guess I can weigh in on this:
1. I'm a flyfisherman, I love it, BUT, on many we easily have a higher mortality rate than responsible bait fisherman due to goofballs using too light a rod/leader to try to land too large a fish and then not properly reviving the fish. This is especially true when someone is using a #18 or higher fly on a 6X or higher tippet catching larger fish (ie those that measure in pounds instead of inches). Alot of these guys (and I'm not taking myself out of this group) fight these bruisers for several minutes, tire them out and then hodl them up out of the water for a few more for pictures and then shove them off face first and think everything is hunky dorey because the big fella swam away. Well besides the lactic acidosis which can kill teh fish, the fish in this weakened state are more succeptible to predation and disease. Imagine if you ran a marathon, then immediately someone took away all your oxygen for a few minutes and then asked you to run again...it doesn't seem too fun.
At any rate now that I'm done ranting (sorry about that but we flyfisherman get a little snooty sometimes...ok most of the time), teh survivability of the fish depends more on the fisherman's preparedness before he/she hooks the fish. Are they using equipment appropriate for the size of fish they plan to catch? Are they prepared to release the fish promptly? Can they deal with a swallowed or foul hooked fish? We all hopefully have to deal with hooking a larger fish than we expected sometimes (especially catfishermen hopefully, I love that stuff) and that's ok, it's an isolated thing. But going after large pike with ultralight tackle or bruiser trout with 8X tippets borders on being irresponsible.
Oh yeah, and about the hooks, I do volunteer work at a local set of lakes that's closed during the week. Groups from Children's Hospital come out and are allowed to fish with bait under close supervision. It's a blast, but my point is, the hook removal method in the InFisherman article works like a charm, but if you're not comfortable with it, cut the line, leaving a few inches attached. We've caught the same fish with a hook in it's gut twice last week. The second time we actually were able to get both hooks out. The fish was none the worse for wear and for the record, it's the tissue around the hook that dies, making removal easier, not that the fish dissolves the hook.
Sorry about the long ranting soapbox post.
 

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My 2 cents:
I personally dislike fishing with PowerBait and such simply because the majority of the time in my past experiences the fish swallowed the hook and end up floating dead. I do think that letting the rod sit without constant attention greatly improves chances of swallowing the hook. However, I have had fish swallow flies even while using a fly and bubble. It can happen with every method. The previous posts did open my eyes to the fact a lot of fly fisherman play fish too long at times. It is fun catching fish on a fly rod though as everyone knows and is easy to tire a fish out. That may add to mortality rates but.......
One question: how many people that only use PowerBait practice catch and release on a consistent basis? I have very rarely seen people come in from Quincy with stringers of trout. Go to Centennial Park Lake, or South Platte Ponds, or 11Mile and most everyone using bait keeps everything. I'm not saying that is bad but if you talk about mortality rates I think the harvesting rates are much higher for those using bait. I personally have caught probably around 100 trout on flies this year and released all of them. That is why I prefer to fish at Quincy where I think the ban of bait makes it a much better fishery. I think the great majority of fisherman there practice catch and release on a frequent basis.
I had experience with circle hooks in Florida and loved them. Not only did we not have any fish swallow the hook, hooking them in the side of the mouth helped keep the teeth out of the way of cutting the line. Not all of the time...but it did help. I brought in a spanish mackerel with teeth like a lion on monofilament only because it was hooked in the side of the mouth.
My bottom line and OPINION - fish will swallow hooks much more often while using bait. Fly fisherman will play fish longer than bait fisherman and tire them out more. Bait fishermen will harvest many more fish than fly fishermen.
 

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BBoat16 said:
The previous posts did open my eyes to the fact a lot of fly fisherman play fish too long at times. 

I've always wanted to bring this up but didn't want to insult anyone. Always wanted to know why the heck it takes them so long to bring in a 12in trout? Is it alot harder to bring a fish in on a flyrod or what? Ive got 3 fish in, in the time ive seen SOME Flyfisherman get one in???

IMO


[me=Jay_In_Parker] [/me]
 

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roadkill said:
i have had fish completely swallow spinners and feather jigs while actively fishing them so it does happen

it is possible to reduce the number of gut hooked fish by paying close attention to your line but there are time that is not what i want to do somethimes i like to just kick it and listen for the jingle bells

it is not about the skillof the angler it is about the way they enjoy fishing. the DOW has to cater to everyone and does so by having different regs at different places

the same guy you look down own cause they bait fish with open bails for a few trout or cats might be the same guy that thinks you are barbaric to go out and catch fish just to release them  to each there own i think the DOW does a fair job walking this tight rope

i do think that the fly and lure only regs are to reduce fish mortality most areas that have these regs also require barbless hooks and have a reduced bag limit or are even catch and release only
Perfectly said



1eyeReD
 

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This is actually the first year I have used my fly rod all the time - and it took me awhile to figure out whether or not to bring the fish in by reeling the line in - or bringing all the line in by hand.  If you decide to reel in - the slack line must be reeled in while holding the line so the fish can't pull anymore out.  That adds time and add on that it is more fun to fight a fish on a fly rod.  I didn't really think about it until now but they do get tired out a lot easier and I don't do that on purpose.  I don't purposely play a fish But I have caught trout trolling cow bells that took forever to bring in and the trout had to be revived.

But....would you rather see me tire out a fish a little longer on a fly rod or let it back in with line and hooks down the throat or keep it regardless of size using PowerBait?
 
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