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Every since 9-11, many of the dams at my favorite fishing lakes ahve been "off limits". I understand the precautions taken, but is there any news of these regs being lifted anytime soon? What does everyone think about the effectiveness of this policy? Most of the time I'm out fishing, any ya-hoo could do whatever they wanted without being noticed....No one's really watching anything.
 

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I too wonder about these "knee jerk" reaction laws after 9-11. i guess it makes sense on paper, but in practice....no. and you are right...no one is really able to enforce many of them so they are pointless in my eye. the only one they seem to effect are normal law abiding citizens---and the last time i checked the Al Qaida or any other terrorist organizations didnt really pay heed to many of our laws...

who knows though. im just a little fish.
 

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Restrictions can suck. But think about it, what would you do if you saw some guy in a restricted area like a damn with a large bag and no fishing gear, would that not look strange? We are our own police, the buck stops here. The security of our country is up to us. We never vote to add more taxes which could pay for more security like police and etc. I would assume that some restricted areas are not patrolled but I do know some that are. Gross Res is an example. That damn is watched like a hawk and you will never know it untill you break the rules. Think about that damn breaking, it would wipe out all of Boulder and much more. The idea is to set a medium and for us, the public to take notice and do something about it. Don't think for a moment that if you called 911 and reported something strange like a guy in a restricted area who just looks out of place, they would not do something.... That is my opinion, that?s all....Pope
 

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The weakest point of a dam is where it connects to the ground. all it would take is too weaken this spot and the dam will slowly fall apart. A guy with normal fishing gear sneaks over to a secluded spot where you cant fish. Puts a time bomb down while hiding. Would taht be so weird? If teh terrorist wants that dam down, he is going to take it down or die trying. The worst thing that could happen is if one of the big reservoirs in the mountains was busted. One fo the reservoirs that will hit many other reservoirs in its path. imagen gross reservoir and a few other reservoirs coming out fo the mountains! :eek: I think that everyone who enters the reservoirs/parks should get to vote (taht way we dont get people who dont give a care) then find out what everyone thinks. When is the government going to stop being so paranoid?
 

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I dunno I think it is ridiculous...the amount of dynamite a person would have to carry out there would be enormous to make a dent in the cubic feet of rock in place...like wouldnt they be more likely to load their truck up and drive it across?...access that way isnt limited or watched...seems just a way to make those areas off limits to fishing without lessening the true danger...normal government lip service...sorry closing dams are a sore spot with me...meanwhile every tom dick and harry can drive across them in any vehicle loaded to the gills with God knows what...
 

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Wow, you have never heard of a RPG, shape charge, liquid, plastics and all the other demo explosives, which by the way plastics, liquid and dynamite is very easy to access by either stealing or knowing someone who has the right to purchase dynamite. Yes stealing, have you ever been to a mine or query. They house their explosives in giant steel boxes which are locked by a master locks and that is it. Some states have very few restrictions to purchase these products. You only need a permit and that is nothing but a piece of paper. I believe that if you think it will not happen it will X 10. Look at 9-11, that says it all. But yet people are mad because we have a change in our freedom, yet fishing is our privilege. I guess I don't understand. People want a perfect world with out working for it. Sorry just my view.....Pope
 

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Yeah and which are they going to do...tote enough out there by foot or drive a vehicle?...I dunno but they sure seem partial to vehicles...
 

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Yes partial to vehicles because they can do the most harm. They want the biggest fire ball they can achieve so the idea is to pack as much explosives in to a car. Drive it as close as you can to a check point and BOOM! A car is very easy to disguise as a weapon. It would be hard to say "ya that car looks suspicious" I think we should do something about it. That is why the terrorist are so successful. The other half to that side is now that (Government) understands that terrorists are packing explosives into brand new cars which are being sold to normal consumers only to later be detonated by the terrorist. That is a terrible way to do harm but a very smart way. And that is only one example....
 

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I think its a waste of some really good fishing areas. Below Navajo Dam on the San Juan the best section is now off limits, I don't believe a couple of signs will really do anything but keep fisherman out of quality areas. Lets face it you would need 24/7 coverage to keep a serious attmept from happening.
 

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Oh ya, it would not take that much explosives (like shape charges) placed at very strategic points to start Chaos.... But again it is up to us the public to make things safe. It would be different if we decided that national security was a true priority and we called our congress men to ask for help in this subject. But we don't because we do not want to pay for any thing extra. I would have no problem increasing my taxes to support such an idea, but it will never happen because MONEY talks!!!!!
 

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These are feel good measures. The sign " DAM OFF LIMITS" could not possibly stop a maniac determined to do harm. In the past I have written to the dept of the interior concerning this and have received no response. It takes many people writing or voicing their opinions to make changes in government.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Great comments, but I'm still leaning towards this regulation being uneccessary. If someone really wanted to do something they could. Heck, having a bunch of people fishing on a dam all the time might provide extra eyes to notice something out of the ordinary.
 

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Where as I love fishing off a dam I support this law. Do I think any terrorist would target our reserviours, its highly unlikely. But is possible and think about it wat better way to strike fear then where its least expected. Anyways, It would not take much to weaken a Dam and let the water do the rest. A couple bangalore torpedos would do the trick and worse yet these would look like fishing rod holders and you probably would give a second glance at a "fisherman" carrying these. Or they could put them inside a rod carrier.

However if a terrorist is going to blow a dam he is going to do it wether the dam is off limits or not, so its hard to say if this law is even effective at its purpose.

 

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McFish is absolutely right-these rules and regs are nothing more then window dressing so they will be able to say they have "done something". And Ice, I'm in agreement also that having more people with access to an area gives us more eyes and ears and IMPROVES the potential for reporting suspicious behavior.

At Pueblo the area out to about 100 yds around the dam is off limits. A ranger or security guard drives up in his truck to the top of the dam every morning about 10am and scopes the dam area with binoculars. He stays about 5-10 minutes then leaves. I am guessing he does this in the PM as well but have never seen him. This isn't security, this is covering your backside in case something happens. Ed
 

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these regs are doing nothing. i agree more eyes would help and if a terrorist wants to blow something up he is going to. imo
 

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Even thou the bangalore torpedo sounds like heavy artillery
it really is'nt . it's about the size of 2 1/8" pvc pipe and would have to run along the lengh of the dam it comes in about 5' sleeves so it would take quit a bit of it to work and one row of this would not  be enough. and it needs a set charge! so you would have to run a pneumatic or nonpnuematic wire charge to a blasting cap.
   When i was attached to 101st 30th engineer battalion,
I was a 12b10 cambat engineer demolition expert and we used bangalore torpedo's mainly to clear  heavy concentration of constatina wire or razor wire as some of you might know it as from the field also to clear paths through mine fields about  3' wide.
A shape charge is about 3' tall when standing on it's legs and about 2' in diamenter and would be more affective on top of the dam since it blows down it makes one heck of a crevice thou,
c4 would work the best if it could be placed along side of the dam but you would have to set a charge,
just as you would have to with a shape charge but c4 is almost impossible to get so you would have to settle for c3 it's civilain cousin. A  " l.a.w"  light anti-tank weapon from a distance would be easiest. or a vehicle would work also just me thoughts on the matter ;D
 

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Ed Marcol said:
McFish is absolutely right-these rules and regs are nothing more then window dressing so they will be able to say they have "done something".  And Ice, I'm in agreement also that having more  people with access to an area gives us more eyes and ears and IMPROVES the potential for reporting suspicious behavior.

At Pueblo the area out to about 100 yds around the dam is off limits.  A ranger or security guard drives up in his truck to the top of the dam every morning about 10am and scopes the dam area with binoculars.  He stays about 5-10 minutes then leaves.  I am guessing he does this in the PM as well but have never seen him.  This isn't security, this is covering your backside in case something happens.  Ed
I pretty much agree. most of these laws established to "protect us" are merely eye dressing, usually enstated after an incident has occured...not that it would have prevented it from happening anyways. so i dont think i really agree with the laws about dam restrictions in most cases.

perhaps a halfway point might be a more reasonable solution. perhaps restricting dams located in "strategic" areas (canyons, near populated areas, highways ect ect), instead of just any old dams...

also, coming from a military aspect, dams are fairly hard targets to destroy. a car bomb would detonate on the outside of it and not cause much effect, an RPG would make a dent, but thats about it, and laying bangelores beside it would probably not do much either. it would take either drilling into its base or packing it with ALOT (thousands of pounds even) of explosives--a task which would take much manpower and time, and you would have to look at what the end result would be. a terrorist wants bang for the buck, blowing up a dam might not be high on his list of targets..any dam that is in a location to do lots of damage when it is destroyed would most likely be too big of a target to support logistically.

take a look at the base of even a small dam, its depth and sheer volume of soil or cement are pretty massive...moving that much earth or concrete is no easy task ,even with Comp-B or C-4, or anything else of that nature.

i dont think that dams are ever going to be a target that is of high priority for a terrorist organization...not when there is so much other stuff about that they can pay attention to.
 

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SHHHH! Don't let the city of grand junction dudes hear or I won't be able to fish the west slope's only walleye lake on one of the few good spots. (the dam). It is already closed when terror alert is above normal.
 

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it's the same kindof deal as gun control, make a bunch of laws to follow and all the law abider will obey, criminals and terrorists don give a damn about laws.... penalize the people obeying the rules, makes sense to me???
 
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