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Discussion Starter #1
I will be the first to admit this hook is pretty, and creates a wonderful profile in anything that is tied on it. The flies just look superb on there.

It's just that the dang thing is very, very weak. More so than other hooks in the same size and wire. I feel that this is due to the non-parabolic geometry, in other words the way that the curvature of the bend is continuously variable, and gets "tighter" towards the back of the throat. As I am not a structural engineer, I will admit before I get stomped for that statement that I may be in error. But that seems like a reasonable assessment given what I have to go on. You will notice that when a 200R fails, the hook springs at the area toward the rear of the bend, just behind the barb, where the curvature flattens out. When a TMC 2488 fails, it does so in a more "graceful" rather than "catastrophic" manner, and will often (though not always) keep you hooked up. But a beatis looks odd on a 2488...

I know I am not the only one that this frustrates. Why not make a stouter wire version, with a bit more gap, (say, 1.5X gap) so we can use it to tie pretty, strong flies? (I have the same feelings about the Mustad C49S, especially in the smaller sizes. Gorgeous, sexy, totally un-usable.)

Failing a TMC 200RH, does anyone have a candidate for a stronger hook with a similar geometry, perhaps one of the Euro hooks?

thanks!
 

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GREAT topic... Love the hook, hate the weakness, cost me a 10lb plus fish at Antero last year.

The hook I have used since then is the Daiichi 1270 and I am really liking the 1870 too. Both seem to be heavier guage steel.
http://www.flyfishingnetwork.com/FlyBuy/FlyBuyDaiichiTrout.html

That said, I have not tested the Daiichi hooks too much on fish, only on the vise, and they seem to perform much better.
 

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200r's are bomber! I landed that big Grass Carp on one! (It broke on the NEXT fish) :D


How about a Dai-Riki 285? Nah...probably just as bad.
 

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Kimo said:
That.s the reason I went to a TMC 2302.

Unfortunately in Tiemco only goes down to a #16

The Fly Shop has them down to a size #18.

And Targus (Yeah, those Guy's) have them down to a size#20 in black nickle.

Kimo
So are you saying there are no size 14, 12 etc? I am a bit confused cause it says Tiemco only goes down to a 16 but then says Fly shop "down" to size 18... do you mean in the same hook?

Don't mean to be picky, I just really want to know my options compared to the 200r.

Thanks
 

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Daiichi 1760. Heavy wire, sizes down to 18. If it's an option I always prefer daiichi.

The daiichi 1760 and the tmc 2302 are both shorter and wider gapped than a 200r. They also have a little softer curve than the 200r. The 200r looks better but I hate the small gap and the trouble I have getting a bead on them in small sizes. I haven't had too many break on me, but I've heard the same story from several sources.

The closest thing to the 200r that still addresses the problems mentioned is a dài riki 285, it's heavy, 3xl and has a bigger gap and the curve is a little less pronounced.
 
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I use the 200R in #20 all the time, have hundreds, never had one break even on the toughest fish, its usually the 6x that snaps !

Dai-Rikki's are notoriously weak due to them NOT being tempered, hate the dang things

2302's are a great substitute if your design permits a 2xl instead of 3xl
 

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Thanks Carl... I think that may be the best option...

SL, I am surprised you haven't had problems with the 200R... It only takes once though... I say that, but it happened to me twice. Both on Callibeatis patterns, once at antero once at Spinney. I can't believe it took so long for someone to post up about this... SO glad this topic came up.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yearnin-fer Naknek said:
That's strange. TMC 200R is probably my all time favorite hook. I've never had a problem with 'em. My biggest rainbow ever was caught on one.
Was this fish subdued in a stillwater or high flow situation?
slowdown said:
uhh.... hook.....uhh....gap....uhh....

you guys have way too much time.
my contention is that as we are engaged in a productive use of time, and are not wasting our time with amusing but ultimately useless commentary on others internet habits, it is YOU who benefit from an abundance of leisure. :-*

I have had a bit of luck with the Daiichi version. Mostly the 1273, for the color. However, I will not fish it on anything stouter than 6X... I will not use Dai-Riki hooks. Econo-hooks are not worth the risk.

Really, I wish Tiemco would just address the deficits with the 200R. I use TMC hooks preferentially, as I do judge them to be the best quality.
 

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My other beef with this hook is that in the smaller sizes, like a #20 or #22, its just not feasible to use... I have lost many a fish due to a poor hookset that I can attribute to the small hook gap on these. It's just too damn small! I used to use them to tie up small midge larvae, the sleek profile on them looks very much like a natural. Now I have resorted back to the TMC 2488s and just go a bigger size to get the length right against the naturals. Bigger hook gap = more fish!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The 200R is forged... forging strengthens the hook in the plane it is forged on, but weakens it off axis to that plane... the combination of the narrow, tapering radius of the bite of the hook (throat in Mustad terminology,) a factor that contributes to a resistance to flexure, and forging make this a hook that will often break, rather than bend, in particular if exposed to a shearing force such as a fish wrapping the line around it's head and surging powerfully.

Tiemco should have taken this into account when deciding how small to manufacture the 200R. I feel that the basic design of this hook exceeds it's materials structural capacity in smaller sizes, #18 or less.
 

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Uh, oh. Now that I've fallen in LOVE with the 200R in a size 18, don't tell me these things are gonna snap!

Now I'm curious, is the reason why the 2302 only available down to size 16 due to the wire thickness issue?

I'm really torn, as I just love the curved shank - unfortunately the curved shank nymph hooks I've been able to purchase from BPS that are the White River brand are similar in shape, available down to size 20, but are not forged - alas, the hook opening issue again.

I have used 200R in size 6 for kokanee streamers (worked great), size 10, 12, and 14 for damselfly patterns (great), and the size 18 for a pheasant tail variant that has also caught some nice fish. Not big monsters, but haven't had a lot of time to fish them.

I'm all in for finding a better hook. I'd tied these up on a straight wire 2xl nymph hook and couldn't get the proportions right. And as I tie a large amount of my flies on scud hooks, i.e. 2487, 2488, 2499SP-BL, etc, maybe my brain is just thinking 'curved'? (And yes, I do tie on Daiichi 1730's too - that hook shape haunted me for a long time until I got some and tied stoneflies on them)

Now I'm still fairly 'new' in this fly tying thing - have only been really seriously tying for 4 years now - but is there a hook that creates that 'slightly wider hook gap' in a 3xl nymph hook style? Looking at profiles, and due to that 'slightly dropped point' on the 200R, I still say I've increased hookups - tied the same pattern on a size 6 salmon hook, size 6 Daiichi 1730, and a size 6 200R, and caught more fish on the last one than the other two combined. (Pattern was a pink crystal cat - will attempt to post later)

Oh, man, what to do? Keep on experimenting, I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
some people have had great experiences with the 200R. If it works for you, use it! I just have had an un-acceptably high number of failures, and noted hook de-formation when removing the hook from fish, indicating the hook was perhaps moments from failure.

I play fish rather forcefully, as I prefer to have the fish nice and green when I release them. If someone is more dainty with fish, it might be less an issue.

I will say there are some very prominent tiers that are with me on this, so I don't feel like a total nutbag. I can also say that the Daiichi 1270 seems a bit better hook to me. I love TMC hooks, but if they get ANY more expensive ( I have heard that they plan to reduce pack size from 25 to 20) I will quit using them.

I am a new tier myself, so I am far from having an answer to many questions, but I have fished that hook enough to have an "opinion"

Cheers!
 

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Swimbait, you are definately not alone in this.... I think the Diichi is a good option for sure... but I wanna try out the ones at The Fly Shop too. Herman doesn't usually suggest junk!
 
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